Originally Posted by blkrx7

Way to keep a cool head under the slightest of scrutiny.

Glad to know your out there fighting the good fight, for us citizens. "People helping people" indeed.

You've taken a perfectly good opportunity to try and help the public understand why your running around prying open hoods at ride stops, and instead thrown around plenty of caps, some insults and all too typical bully routine.

Want my lunch money too?

Paul

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Only if you want to give me your lunch money. I 'm kinda short on change for donuts...... "Way to keep a cool head under the slightest of scrutiny"- WOW! Theres the pot calling the kettle black....
One bill passes about several issues and you think the big bad government is after you and you modified car... Like I stated above: Unless you race on streets then you have nothing to worry about. To help you understand (and you seem to need a lot of help), street racing is already and always has been a serious offence in the HTA. Its not new. So, again i will ask you if you have ever been charged with 'street racing"? I bet the anwser is still no. This bill doesnt make it any easy to PROVE street racing its just makes the punishment more severe. To further help you understand, its kinda like Careless Drving. Careless Driving is a 'catch all' offence that can be applied to almost any moving violation. Its also an arrestable offence and, your vehicle can be siezed until the final disposition of the offence (sec 217 HTA). When I say siezed, that doesnt mean pulling plates, that means held until the court case is over several months later. The reason I mention this is because, you dont see officers running around "power tripping" with these existing authorities... So its mis-informed, and some what paranoid people like you Paul that spread horror stories about what the Police are going to do with this new bill.
Remember you still have to be street racing and they still have to PROVE street racing was taking place. But thanks for keeping a cool head.

Oh and as for the Breach of your charter rights... Do you even know what specific right or freedom under the Charter you are accussing the police of breaching? Or even what action the police are accused of commiting to breach that right? Its maybe something you want to look up before you start making such statements.

So if careless driving is the catch all with that kind of power, why not just charge the street racers with careless driving and impound their cars until their court dates instead of just 7 days?

Oh wait, that's because if you were conducting a "street racing blitz" and charged all the "street racers" who are SUSPECTED of street racing with careless driving the backlash would be massive. This way with the new street racing powers you can impound their cars for just "looking" like they were street racing and the media would love the police because you're "getting tough on street racers"

Maybe I didn't read the same bill, but I didn't see the word PROVE in there anywhere. I saw SUSPECT. That's as open as a blank cheque book IMO. I don't race on the streets, I take it to the track. But I do know that if you have a more visible or audible car (even if you're 100% legal) and you say for example drop the hammer to pass someone, it could look like something it isn't and next thing you know you're being SUSPECTED of a crime you weren't even close to participating in and your car is sitting in the impound lot for a week.

MONEY GRAB

theres a little catch all phrase in the charter of rights aswell.

"gaurenteed only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law"

remember, the charter is there to protect EVERYONE, not just you. therefore, if denying your rights for 1 min MAY save the life of an other person, or two, it is a reasonable limit on that right. why? because denying your rights for that 1 min, is better for the rest of the population. (there is case law on this, i'm just too lazy to find it).

for your friend with the "improper EGR" at a ride, if he thinks he was treated unfairly, fight it. see waht the judge has to say.

Originally Posted by fixitmattman

So if careless driving is the catch all with that kind of power, why not just charge the street racers with careless driving and impound their cars until their court dates instead of just 7 days?

Oh wait, that's because if you were conducting a "street racing blitz" and charged all the "street racers" who are SUSPECTED of street racing with careless driving the backlash would be massive. This way with the new street racing powers you can impound their cars for just "looking" like they were street racing and the media would love the police because you're "getting tough on street racers"

Maybe I didn't read the same bill, but I didn't see the word PROVE in there anywhere. I saw SUSPECT. That's as open as a blank cheque book IMO. I don't race on the streets, I take it to the track. But I do know that if you have a more visible or audible car (even if you're 100% legal) and you say for example drop the hammer to pass someone, it could look like something it isn't and next thing you know you're being SUSPECTED of a crime you weren't even close to participating in and your car is sitting in the impound lot for a week.

MONEY GRAB

--SIGH-- As some once said on this forum "Why do I bother".... I am going to trying to refrain from intentially attacking your inability to grasp simple concepts such as 'examples'. However I can not promise that some offside comments wont slip out...
First of all the careless driving was an EXAMPLE. I am not going to debate or describe in painfully detail every point of legislation. So again careless driving was an example of existing powers not being abused. You completely missed the point by making that rant about charging street racers with careless driving versus street racing.

Moving onto your second well thought out statement about SUSPECTED vs PROVE. Did I miss something? Did this bill reform or entire legal system and court process in Canada? Did this bill just do away with PROVING an offence occurred in court by presenting EVIDENCE? I dont think so. As was stated before the person still has to actually commite the offence and evidence still has to exist. The word SUSPECTED was in the he news article posted at the begining of this thread. That news article is not the actual bill nor is it legislation or the actual amendment to statue law. A journalist wrote that article as a summarized, dumb-down version of the actual bill. As far as I can tell the actual statute law does not exist yet, or atleast has not been published yet as the regualtions have to completed (also previously stated).
In addition, the accussed person in every offence or charge laid by police is always refered to as having been "SUSPECTED" of committing the offence until CONVICTED by the courts. Its just the terminology used. It stems from that age old premise "Innocent until proven guilty"... OH theres that word again, PROVE.

All I have been trying to say through out the many people who believe themselves to be these great street-lawyers, is the law has not even been put into black and white text yet. Until the actual wording in the HTA comes out there is no point even passing judgement on some chopped up version of the billl written in a news article.

Furthermore there is not one offence in law that I am aware of where a police officer can lay a charge based solely on SUSPICION alone. There ALWAYS must exist a set of facts and circumstances.
So keep your pantyhose on and relax about this whole suspicion thing.

BTW....At the risk of stirring things up again.... Is having an improper/ disconnected EGR (whatever the issue was ) still not an offence?

Sounds like you or your buddy is bitter that they got caught. But nice try with the charter. Thats usually the card guilty people try playing in Criminal Court, when they have no other defence.

Originally Posted by SPOC

--SIGH-- As some once said on this forum "Why do I bother".... I am going to trying to refrain from intentially attacking your inability to grasp simple concepts such as 'examples'. However I can not promise that some offside comments wont slip out...
First of all the careless driving was an EXAMPLE. I am not going to debate or describe in painfully detail every point of legislation. So again careless driving was an example of existing powers not being abused. You completely missed the point by making that rant about charging street racers with careless driving versus street racing.

Moving onto your second well thought out statement about SUSPECTED vs PROVE. Did I miss something? Did this bill reform or entire legal system and court process in Canada? Did this bill just do away with PROVING an offence occurred in court by presenting EVIDENCE? I dont think so. As was stated before the person still has to actually commite the offence and evidence still has to exist. The word SUSPECTED was in the he news article posted at the begining of this thread. That news article is not the actual bill nor is it legislation or the actual amendment to statue law. A journalist wrote that article as a summarized, dumb-down version of the actual bill. As far as I can tell the actual statute law does not exist yet, or atleast has not been published yet as the regualtions have to completed (also previously stated).
In addition, the accussed person in every offence or charge laid by police is always refered to as having been "SUSPECTED" of committing the offence until CONVICTED by the courts. Its just the terminology used. It stems from that age old premise "Innocent until proven guilty"... OH theres that word again, PROVE.

All I have been trying to say through out the many people who believe themselves to be these great street-lawyers, is the law has not even been put into black and white text yet. Until the actual wording in the HTA comes out there is no point even passing judgement on some chopped up version of the billl written in a news article.

Furthermore there is not one offence in law that I am aware of where a police officer can lay a charge based solely on SUSPICION alone. There ALWAYS must exist a set of facts and circumstances.
So keep your pantyhose on and relax about this whole suspicion thing.

Does your uniform really pickup girls? LOL

I like how you post really informative posts. I enjoy reading your follow ups to these kinds of things. I sir, give you a thumbs up to clarifying things...as well as discussing them on non agressive manner. Cheers.

I've seen some people have some awful experienced with police officers, the other day

me and 5 other "tuner" cars pulled onto highway 8, just so you know, an OPP was pulling onto the highway as well

lights come on, he tried literly pulling us all over, and the stuff he said to my friend, wow.. just simply, (he was in a stock crx that didn't even have a fart cannon)

You think your a rocket in your pile of crap, etc etc.

wow

That cop knew that CRX can never lose! He is a smart one that cop. Ahead of the game in my book.

CRX Forum

P.S. CRX really can never lose.

Originally Posted by SPOC

Careless Driving is a 'catch all' offence that can be applied to almost any moving violation. Its also an arrestable offence and, your vehicle can be siezed until the final disposition of the offence (sec 217 HTA). When I say siezed, that doesnt mean pulling plates, that means held until the court case is over several months later. The reason I mention this is because, you dont see officers running around "power tripping" with these existing authorities...

.

^actually this happened to me, however my lawyer managed to get my car out after 2 weeks.. Instead of the 10 months it took for my case to be heard and tossed/lesser included charge.

it was based on a statement from an assailant (complete stranger with pages of criminal charges) of mine, he took the criminals word as gospel, and treated me (no criminal record) as though I were lying and using the police to settle a personal score..


Had I not secured a lawyer I would have likely been charged due to the fictitious story my assailant made up and the officers took a liking to. It went so far as the prosecutor read into "facts" this fictitious story before a judge.

There was no actual physical evidence, the guy said I fired a gun at him, did they test for residue or ask for my shirt? no. did they find a firearm with or without my prints? no. did they find shell casing or any evidence at the intersection in question or in my car on any of their 3 searches? no. Did they withdraw the charges prior to court? no.

Regardless it cost me thousands (about 2 semesters university value), I had to pay impound based on charges that were reduced to 1 HTA offence...

I have my reasons for being bitter and a critic, and until you (SPOC) have been unjustly charged with a crime you didn't commit, I don't think you'd understand.

Oh yeah, and I beleive in the need for Policing and the basic principals behind it, but believe that somewhere along the way the system has been preverted.

EDIT: I too have recieved a ticket from a RIDE program; "alter license plate" it was fold so that "ontario" faced upwards, the ###"s faced forwards, and "yours to discover" faced downwards.. Rather than take the opportunity to inform "joe citizen" who hasn't been drinking of his infraction he decided to give me a ticket, and he declined to give me my MADD coupon book too.

Originally Posted by SPOC

Only if you want to give me your lunch money. I 'm kinda short on change for donuts...... "Way to keep a cool head under the slightest of scrutiny"- WOW! Theres the pot calling the kettle black....
One bill passes about several issues and you think the big bad government is after you and you modified car... Like I stated above: Unless you race on streets then you have nothing to worry about. To help you understand (and you seem to need a lot of help), street racing is already and always has been a serious offence in the HTA. Its not new. So, again i will ask you if you have ever been charged with 'street racing"? I bet the anwser is still no. This bill doesnt make it any easy to PROVE street racing its just makes the punishment more severe. To further help you understand, its kinda like Careless Drving. Careless Driving is a 'catch all' offence that can be applied to almost any moving violation. Its also an arrestable offence and, your vehicle can be siezed until the final disposition of the offence (sec 217 HTA). When I say siezed, that doesnt mean pulling plates, that means held until the court case is over several months later. The reason I mention this is because, you dont see officers running around "power tripping" with these existing authorities... So its mis-informed, and some what paranoid people like you Paul that spread horror stories about what the Police are going to do with this new bill.
Remember you still have to be street racing and they still have to PROVE street racing was taking place. But thanks for keeping a cool head.

Oh and as for the Breach of your charter rights... Do you even know what specific right or freedom under the Charter you are accussing the police of breaching? Or even what action the police are accused of commiting to breach that right? Its maybe something you want to look up before you start making such statements.

I'm not going to go into the whole story, but in the summer of 2005 a white civic(not mine) was accerlerating up a street in kitchener(with a noisy exhaust) not giving it at all(the car was a fast car) and some stupid slow pos car beside him with a fart car was flooring it away...this appeared to look like street racing to a certain police officer and my friends white civic, since he was closer, the other car was gone, was pulled over and charged for street racing, they impounded his car(denting his header in the process). This went to court and the charges were lowered but not dropped, this is the reason why laws need to be clear and not vague so things like this don't happen. If anyone has any doubts about this I will talk to the owner and person who was charged and can add some more to this story, but this hear is why some people can be afraid of these types of laws, cause the innocent person can end up in trouble.

Originally Posted by blkrx7

I thought drinking and driving was already illegal? If the government would like to change the legal limit, I'd be fine with that. I do wish they'd stop pussy footing around the issue by putting in wildly variable fines and penalties for being under the limit mind you. Set a fine/penalty for a crime, and leave it alone.

I find it ironic that the penalties for being suspected of racing are nearly ten fold that of drinking and driving. Especially considering

"About 1,350 people die each year in Canada in motor vehicle crashes involving a drinking driver, and many more are seriously injured or disabled. In Ontario in 1997, alcohol was involved in 39 per cent of motor vehicle fatalities, 45 per cent of marine vehicle fatalities and 64 per cent of snowmobile and all-terrain vehicle fatalities. Drinking and driving is the largest single criminal cause of death and injury in Canada. "

You'd think being presumed to be racing is 4/1350th the problem as drinking and driving, that either

1. The focus, funds and media attention would be a little sharper on the real issue
2. The problems would be treated separately instead of trying tag a politically popular issue alongside a drinking and driving bill

You can destroy your life financially and be put in prison for being suspected of racing, which is an extremely difficult thing to quantify, and to even defend if your innocent 'I think you were trying to outdistance another vehicle' versus drinking and driving, which can be easily quantified, independently checked by a team of unbiased observers, and has resulted in real world deaths approaching 338 times that of racing (we'll not discuss the fact that of the 35 so called street racing deaths, the majority were the drivers who suffered the ultimate penalty already for his/her own poor judgment, and many were already drunk!). Yet you can drink, drive, get caught, blow warn, be home that evening in time for supper with a light fine and no record.

I'd have to think that it's not every police officers worst nightmare if some kid wraps himself around a telephone pole off of frobisher at 2am because he's an idiot. It's the jackass middle aged businessman drunk in his 300c flying down the expressway at 9pm trying to beat the ride programs that's a loaded gun pointed at each person he passes.

IMO anyhow...

BTW a ride program stopped a talon the other night and cited him for a disconnected EGR. Focus on the problem guys, or your going to pull over the wrong guy (a lawyer) and lose the ride program. It's already an identified breach of our charter of rights and freedoms, poking around under the hood has nothing to do with drinking and driving.

Paul

FINALLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought i was the only one that was seeing the real problem, everywhere in the news and media, street racing this and that , 35 people (everyone a tragedy) have been killed , this barely holds a match to the blaze burning by impaired driving !!!! And if you look @ those 35, how mnay involved DUI , how many were in stock vehicles.....

you are fighting an invisible target, the real street racers are NEVER caught , as they dont galavant up the 401 or burn down University ave.


Buddy of mine got hit in the afternoon on his bike , by a van, guys 4 times legal limit before 2pm, wrecks my buddies bike (he was doing 70kph) when he was T-boned....

This guy gets taken in, court date is not for 4 mnths and this guy can drive everyday leading up to it..... probably drunk...... wheres the real injustice.....


The penalties for drunk driving are too slack and rediculous, even if the new bill passes... DRIVING IS A FUCKKING PRIVILAGE , YOU DRINK AND DRIVE YOU NO LONGER DRIVE end of story, it goes beyond just taking thier liscence , i think if you blow over, you get a suspension, fine and you get the interlock...... caught again, you lost your liscence for life, they take your car (confiscated because you used it for illegal activity, just like a "racer") and you can now not purchase a car, insure one, or drive one....EVER...

You want results thats the way....... taking a piece of plastic away does not make you forget how to drive, taking that car away and chances to get another one keeps that person from behind a wheel...

Originally Posted by Carbon_Cavvy

This guy gets taken in, court date is not for 4 mnths and this guy can drive everyday leading up to it..... probably drunk...... wheres the real injustice.....

...

uhm no, if you blow over roadside you get taken in, within 2 hours of the roadside you need to give 2 samples to the "intoxilizer" (more accurate device), fail both of those and its an immediate 90 day suspension... plead quilty immediately and the 90 day + your 1 year are served concurrently, plead not quilty and you drive again after 90 days and wait 8-24 months for you trial, at which point you may be subject a 1 year suspension in addition to the 90 days already served.

and the intoxilizer is accurate +/- 10%

FYI

Originally Posted by Carbon_Cavvy

You want results thats the way....... taking a piece of plastic away does not make you forget how to drive, taking that car away and chances to get another one keeps that person from behind a wheel...

I will however agree with you an this one, the car dosen't know you don't have that plastic card

it does know if you blow over or not when installed with a machine that tests your breath before the ignition will fire....(i forget the name right now...)

Originally Posted by 500k_93_civic

it does know if you blow over or not when installed with a machine that tests your breath before the ignition will fire....(i forget the name right now...)

interlock or something, and actually, yes/no, I drove a buddies truck equiped with that, (due to his fatigue after 30 something hours straight working) and every 45 minutes or something the system will beep requiring another sample (while driving). I would have to wake him up so he could give his sample, otherwise the car just shuts down (?).

So yeah even that system is subvertible, but I beleive it requires official inspection every 30-60 days at the owners expense

Originally Posted by S13GG

interlock or something, and actually, yes/no, I drove a buddies truck equiped with that, (due to his fatigue after 30 something hours straight working) and every 45 minutes or something the system will beep requiring another sample (while driving). I would have to wake him up so he could give his sample, otherwise the car just shuts down (?).

So yeah even that system is subvertible, but I beleive it requires official inspection every 30-60 days at the owners expense

its better than nothing.

so you are telling me that you drove his truck drunk, and theng ot him to blow the test? wow.

I agree that the attention focused on street racing deaths vs impaired driving deaths is disproportional.
The reason for that though is public intrest due to media attention. The media reports on what will get them headlines and grab the public attention to boost ratings. That means high profile impaired driving arrests (ie: celebs, or fatal accidents) and street racing fatalities and high profile incidents. The 'street racers' make up a much smaller cross section of society than impaired drivers do. They are relatively an isolated group and thus to have 35 deaths in such a realitively small group is significant and hence the media attention. The reason street racing gets alot of attention from the media and subsequently the polititians is also because it doesnt face the same social problems or judicial hurdles that impaired drivers do...

That problem with impaired driving is as follows... As much as the public disagrees with drinking and driving a shocking number of people still drive while impaired (I believe I read an article stating that police only catch 3% of the impaired drivers on the road). These people make up all aspects of society: white collar execs, blue collar workers, students, elderly, etc). When these contributing members of society get caught driving under the influence, they dont want the stigma of being known as an 'Impaired Driver' attached to their name, their job depends on their licence, etc. They are not usually 'criminals' in the common sense of the word and the thought of criminal record also motivates them to contest the charges. They will fight and pay huge dollars for the best liars, sorry I meant lawyers, to tie up vaulable court time to get themselves off Impaired driving / Over-80 charges.
Impaired driving cases are some of the most scrutinized trials that come before the courts because of this stigma. Defence lawyers make a mockery out any 'justice' in the justice system, all in an attempt to get a clearly guilty person and dangerous driver back on the road where he can harm or kill others. This coupled with bad case law and the lenient attitude the courts have taken with impaired drivers is the reason why penalties seem so lax. The penalties listed in the Criminal Code are severe, however the courts never give out the maximum penalties.
Its sickening to catch a person driving who is so drunk that they cant stand when they get out of the car. Who's blood alcohol level is so high they have to go to hospital before they can be released from police custody. Then several months later to hear that the Criminal charges of impaired driving and over 80 got plead down to a highway traffic act charge of Careless driving. This is the side of impaired driving trials that the public doesnt see because its boring to the media, and no one is going to sit in a court room and watch a trial unless they have to be there.

That being said, you will be hard pressed to find a police officer who cares more about the street racing aspects of this bill than they do the impaired driving points.

So given the Police's enforcement preference, I wouldnt fret about some massive blitz where every car that is slightly moddified gets yanked from the road and impounded for driving 2 km/hr over the speed limit because the officer suspected them of racing as they passed a slow moving garbage truck.

** A side note: Affilitating with MADD or some other anit-drinking and driving group would be a great idea for car enthusiasts group such as VM to do. **